Thursday, December 04, 2008

Back to Painting

I've gotten a couple painting sessions in now, and I am feeling much relieved. The above painting I started, um, quite some time ago. More of the panel is covered now, and as I started back up I noticed that since I started the piece, something about my painting has changed. As I looked at the dry paint (hip, back, upper arm) compared to the wet paint (forearms, hands, lower 2/3 of the legs) I thought about the former, "Gosh, that's chromatic!" I remember exactly what I was thinking putting those stronger chromas in there and I wonder what will become of this painting and how will it be different than the if I'd finished it two months ago. I put a 2nd layer on the face while I had the flesh tones on the palette.

I'm also closing in on this one. I may have finished up the sitting person's hands, and have moved on to her shirt. Our left side of her shirt is almost there, the other side has hardly been touched. Then I started going into the background with another layer of black, and am really trying to lose those edges that are in shadow; the back of the sitting woman's head and everything beyond the lit part of her arm, and letting all detail fade until we hit a lit part of the standing woman. I will do the same all over the canvas, carefully choosing which edges will be completely lost in shadow, which will be softly visible, and which will be more crisp.

Tomorrow, I will not be painting on either of these canvases. I've decided to treat myself to a day long class tomorrow at ARTichokes with an artist I've admired for several years, Rich Bowman. This will be completely outside the box for me. I haven't attempted a landscape since maybe high school, though I have envisioned landscape paintings often. Work in this class will be done exclusively with a palette knife, which is a tool I completely lack experience or comfort with when it comes to painting. Finally, I think we're going to be working from *gasp* our imaginations! As an artist who is, ironically, completely uncreative, this all sounds really intimidating. I really am looking forward to it, though, because I have often thought about including all these elements in my work but just haven't attempted it or really known how to approach it.

Don't forget that I am also teaching two classes at ARTichokes this month! Portrait Drawing on December 11th and Figure Painting on December 18th. See my classes and workshops page for more info.

Tuesday, December 02, 2008

Painting, Teaching, Etc.

It's kind of a bummer that I haven't been able to update this blog more regularly. This is also reflective of my frustration with not being as productive in the painting department as I'd like. There's always something else that has to be done! I'm doing my best to clear my schedule this month and next, yet I still need to pay the bills. I've gotten a couple things out of the way, though. After this week I will have a vacation from private lessons during the work week, and I just delivered the final design for a children's CD I've been working on. I still have some classes and such going on, but I just might cancel all classes after the New Year. I desperately want more studio time!

Regardless, I have still made some progress. Since the last post about this painting, I've completely gone over both bellies, added some warmer, lighter pigments to the sitting woman's face, put another layer on her hands, and started on her clothing. You can see the difference in the white skirt, though I don't know if I will keep that the way it is.

There's still so much to do. I almost want to cry I am so frustrated with the fact that this is taking so long. I wanted it done in November! I have other paintings to paint! Meanwhile, I still need to get curtains up at the studio since the sun this time of year is too direct...

OK, enough of my pity-party! Last Saturday I held a figure painting class in my studio, and we will continue this through December. Today I moved my big canvas/supply holder, which is on the left with a green fabric draped over it, out of the way to hopefully accommodate everyone better. In the above picture, you can see my easel way in the background on the right.

I experimented with using color strings in my painting during this class. I pre-mixed a series of neutral grays, a flesh tone, and an earth red and yellow. There were certainly benefits to working this way, and I plan to actually tube color strings in the near future. I've been getting some of these ideas from a certain group and their application of the Munsell system, which is something I've been spending a lot of time reading about over the past several months. Interesting stuff.

Here's my palette set up, already part way through the painting. The lighting wasn't very good when I took this and I wanted to avoid flash, but I will take a better picture next time I set up my palette this way.

Anyway, I wanted to really just focus on the above as my composition. However, I only had an 11x14 or 5x7 panel to choose from, and I felt stretching that to 11x14 would be too big. So, I did focus on that area, and then at the end of class rushed to sketch in the rest.

Even though I am not totally happy with the paint outside of the cropped area, it was a good session for me. I took a picture to use as reference since this model is *on tour with his band* and thus will not be available to model again soon. Perhaps I will get a chance to bring this one up to a finish.

Tuesday, November 25, 2008

The Rape of Europa

Last night I watched "The Rape of Europa" on PBS and highly recommend everyone watch it. I knew that the Nazis stole and destroyed a lot of art, but I had no idea to what extent. While none of it begins to compare to the loss of human life at the hand of Hitler's regime, it was incredible to see images of the mass amount of artwork that was stolen, and to see great museums emptying their buildings of masterpieces in anticipation of the arrival of the Nazi army. Above is an image of the Winged Victory of Somothrace during it's evacuation from the Louvre. Below is a description of the program from the PBS website:
THE RAPE OF EUROPA tells the epic story of the systematic theft, deliberate destruction and miraculous survival of Europe’s art treasures during the Third Reich and World War II. In a journey through seven countries, the film takes viewers into the violent whirlwind of fanaticism, greed, and warfare that threatened to wipe out the artistic heritage of Europe. For twelve long years, the Nazis looted and destroyed art on a scale unprecedented in history. But heroic young art historians and curators from America and across Europe fought back with an extraordinary campaign to rescue and return the millions of lost, hidden and stolen treasures. Now, more than sixty years later, the legacy of this tragic history continues to play out as families of looted collectors recover major works of art, conservators repair battle damage, and nations fight over the fate of ill-gotten spoils of war. Joan Allen narrates this breathtaking chronicle about the battle over the very survival of centuries of western culture.

Sunday, November 23, 2008

New Classes Scheduled at ARTichokes

The time to sign up is now for these one-day classes at ARTichokes in Leawood, KS! All materials and a light lunch are included.

Portrait Drawing
Instructor: Lacey Lewis
Class Date: December 11th
Thursday, 10:00 am - 2:00 pm
Cost for 1 class: $95.00 plus tax
*a light lunch will be provided and all materials are included in the enrollment fee.

In this class we will study the art of portrait drawing in graphite and charcoal. Everything from lighting and posing the model to identifying good reference photos, proportion, creating a pleasing and accurate line drawing, and using value to give your portrait form and solidity will be covered. Work will be done from a combination of life and reference photos that we create ourselves. Students are encouraged to bring their own photos.

Figure Painting
Instructor: Lacey Lewis
Class Date: December 18th
Thursday, 10:00 am - 3:00 pm
Cost for 1 class: $145.00 plus tax
*a light lunch will be provided and all materials are included in the enrollment fee.

Enjoy demonstrations, discussions, and hands-on painting from a live, draped model in this unique oil painting workshop. Students will begin by drawing an accurate drawing and value map in monochromatic oil paint. They will then learn about value and skin tones. Finally, the class will refine their paintings by adding details. Lacey Lewis will guide the class through her creative process of painting the human figure. A light lunch will be provided. Class size is limited so hold your spot today!

Tiny Portrait Sketch

Yesterday I did this little sketch during my portrait painting class in my studio. It is on a tiny 7" x 5" panel that I scrubbed some raw umber onto. I started with the drawing in paint above and used an eraser to remove some of the pigment. I meant to take progress pictures with the color stages, but I forgot. Below is the final sketch.

Friday was the opening reception of "Favorites" at Strecker-Nelson Gallery. I have several drawings in the show. Jamie came along with me and I was pleased to meet some artists I had been itching to meet for some time, including Dean Kube and Louis Copt. I also had some great chats with Dan Coburn, Diana Dunkley and Ralph Fontenot. After such a busy weekend, I am spending today recovering before getting right back at it in the studio tomorrow.

Thursday, November 20, 2008

More Painting

I've gotten a bit more painting done on this. Can't wait to finish it up! Yesterday I worked on the figure in the black shirt, going over certain areas of her face, doing another entire layer on her hands and arm, and deepening the shadow on her belly. This is all helping her to fade into the background in the shadows, and then emerge from them in the light. Her belly will need more work, as right now the light area is pretty flat.

Included above is an image of the painting in black and white. These values will be adjusted to carry the eye through the painting in a specific pattern. My plan is to lower values on the belly of the standing figure, lower the contrast on the white shirt somewhat, and then lighten the flesh tones overall on the sitting figure. This should help the eye move around the whole painting, to both faces and both bellies, whereas at the moment the flow seems to stick at the sitting figure's face and shirt. Also, note how it doesn't make sense for the belly of the standing figure to receive more light than the belly of the sitting lady, since the sitting lady is closer to the light source. All these things will be corrected after I make the changes listed above.

360 Studio Slideshow

Jamie and I have been doing a lot of work on the studio. Yesterday I took a break from painting to take these pictures. Check out the painted panels, and my new little manikins. You can also see some of Jamie's work on the fence above the cubbies. Still much more to do, but the place is coming along.

Tuesday, November 18, 2008

Checkin' In

Unfortunately, I have no photo today. I will rectify this soon!

Last Friday was the Follow the Dotte Art Walk/Holiday Art Sale at the studio. I got to chat up lots of familiar and new people, and it was a good time. I'd also spent the day painting the panels and pillars the same green as the wall, so the place is almost looking spiffy now. The sale went on Saturday as well, but that was my wedding anniversary so I skipped out while Jamie held the place open for me. (Thank you!)

Yesterday (Monday) evening I gave a presentation to the Lawrence Art Guild and had a really great time! I think it went over pretty well and hopefully I made a couple new friends. Also found out about a possible open studios event for several counties in Kansas in the spring.

Today was for errands and a private lesson. Coming up this week I have days with 1/2 each day spent teaching and the other 1/2 day hopefully in the studio. Friday I have an opening out at Strecker-Nelson in Manhattan, KS followed by a painting class on Saturday.

Sunday I am going to sleep in!

Wednesday, November 12, 2008

Plugging Away and a Figure Drawing

Yesterday I continued to work on the face, hair, and shirt here. Still so far to go! Today I was at the studio but was doing some framing and a lot of cleaning.

Below is my sketch from last Saturday's figure drawing class. If I am lucky, I can get the model back in so I can finish it!

2nd Friday Art Walk and Holiday Art Sale

The Pressroom Studios is participating in the 2nd Friday "Follow the Dotte" Art Walk and KVAH's Holiday Art Sale. I will be at my space during the open hours this Friday, and my apprentice, Jamie Bone, will hold the studio open on Saturday. (I won't be there because it's my anniversary... sorry!) I have some new artwork on display and also have a small handful of affordable paintings and a few copies of my Feminae catalog available for purchase.

Sunday, November 09, 2008

Weekend Studio Update

It might not seem like it based on the lack of reports on this blog, but it has been a busy week! In the last 7 days I've had 5 private lessons, a figure drawing class (see the picture above), worked in the studio and on the studio space itself, painted a bit at home, collected reference material for my next painting, worked on a children's CD design, and more. I have several little projects going on at once. Whew!

In the picture above, you can see there's now a big wall-thing behind the model. Seamus was kind enough to deliver these large 8' x 4' panels to my studio and he, my husband, and new artist to the Pressroom Studios Ron (pictured on the right) were kind enough to hinge the panels together for me. This week I am going to paint the panels the same color as my wall, with the hope that they will help control all that light bouncing around in the studio. I still *need* to get some curtains up there!

The picture was taken during class on Saturday. In the middle there's my apprentice, Jamie Bone, the aforementioned new artist in the Pressroom, Ron Smith, and Stephen Sweigart of Lawrence. I had my easel set up on the far right. Everyone in this class is an artist and is aimed at making a professional career out of their craft. It's so exciting to be working with such serious artists!

While I didn't get to do a lot of painting done at the studio with everything else going on, I did get to do a quick layer on expecting chick #2's face. I almost even made it to her hair! There's still so much adjusting to be done, but at least the value has been knocked back.

Now the values are falling into place. I feel like it's been so slow-going with this painting, so it's a little tough when I think to myself, "OK, just one more layer over the whole thing!" Maybe this will be the week, though. I have very little in the way of lessons this week, though I do still have other projects, a grant proposal, and a presentation to prepare.

While at home, I did manage to sneak in a quick session on this one morning. This time I was in the zone and ready to cover the whole canvas, but I had something scheduled and had to leave. My plan, right now, is to try and maintain this hectic schedule through the end of the year. Then I will try and take several months in early 2009 to focus primarily on painting.

Friday, October 31, 2008

Not in the Zone

Maybe it's because it's Halloween, but every now and then it's like I'm a zombie at the easel. That was the case last night. I hardly got any painting done on this little panel... not that what I did do was bad, but it was agonizingly slow. Just imagine me sitting at the easel (I don't always sit, but this one is small) cross-legged, slouched way forward, eyes droopy, painting sluggishly.

Perhaps I just need more sleep!

I similarly completed next to nothing on my own painting at my small still lives class that morning. Talk about an off day!

Thursday, October 30, 2008

Rave: My New Favorite Paint Brushes

I picked up a Winsor & Newton Monarch Mongoose size 4 filbert at a local art store, and after using it a couple times I decided to order about 10 more from Dick Blick. I was a little hesitant to spend so much of my order on paint brushes, but every time I use one of these I just love it! I've never had a brush hold it's shape so well, and they are both firm and flexible at the same time.

I love, love, love these brushes. Seriously.

Starting Belly #2

Yesterday in the studio I started moving on to painting the 2nd belly. I have a good base, but another layer will go over this. Can't wait to get back to it!

Monday, October 27, 2008

Narrative Painting Update

Getting all the skin-tone values nice and low... but just noticed how off the value on the light area of the neck is. Wow! I'll have to fix that tomorrow. Anyway, in these darker paintings I really like to get the values low so that I can build up layers of light on top. This helps add interest and depth to the color, and also follows the Old Masters' rule of having thin shadows and thick lights. Every time I go and look at Rembrandt I am reminded that I have to be more liberal with the paint in those light areas.

Thursday, October 23, 2008

November Classes at Hilliard

Now is the time to sign-up if you are interested in the November classes at Hilliard Gallery in the Crossroads Arts District of KC, MO! I only need 3 confirmed students per class to make sure they go through, so if you would like to attend, please sign-up early to help avoid canceled classes.

Please feel free to contact me with any questions!

Saturdays in November - Portrait and Figure Series
Take one, two, or all classes in this series that focuses on the realistic portrayal of people. The Portrait Drawing class will focus on drawing the head in charcoal by creating an accurate envelope and then massing in values to give form, solidity, and a likeness. Portrait Painting will expand on the Portrait Drawing as we create an initial line drawing in oil paint and then create form using color, value and accurate skin tones. Everything becomes more complex as the focus shifts to the figure, and sight-size will help to create a correct representation of the figure with little confusion, so we can then concentrate on expressing the nuances of anatomy and structure. In the final class in the series, Figure Painting, we will try juggling all accumulated knowledge using sight-size to create our initial line drawing, massing in initial values and missing accurate flesh tones.

Models are provided, and a limited number of easels are available for student use. Please check easel availability when you register. A list of materials needed for the classes available on the Hilliard website and at the gallery.

  • Saturdays 12 pm - 3 pm
  • Portrait Drawing: November 1st
    Figure Drawing: November 8th
    Portrait Painting: November 15th
    Figure Painting: November 22nd
  • Location: Hilliard Gallery
  • Cost: $40 per class, or $140 for all four classes
Hilliard Gallery
18th and Oak
Kansas City, MO 64108
(816) 561-2956

Tuesday, October 21, 2008

Narrative Painting - Slow Progress

I've been working a lot on the face, above, to try and get what I feel is an overall good balance of value and chroma. It's been difficult, but at this point I feel like I am in the ball-park enough that I can move on for a while and use it as a thermometer to gauge the values/chroma on the rest of the painting. Right now, it looks a little awkward in comparison to the rest of the composition, which has lots of lighter and more saturated passages. Hopefully it will all come together in the end!

After I got the face at the focal point more or less settled, I quickly scrubbed some color into the remaining blank areas of the canvas. I can't wait to get back to this, though I am not quite sure when that will be since I have a hectic schedule for the rest of the week. (Please excuse the value-finder taped to the canvas; I have a lot of trouble figuring out the right values and light balance once I am home!)

Studio Update - Painting the Wall

Jamie and I spent the weekend cleaning up and painting the wall of my studio. I should take a good picture of the line where we stopped cleaning the wall... you can see an edge in these photos where my neighbor to the left cleaned up higher than we were able to reach. That might give you an idea of how dirty it was! Slowly but surely all of us at the Pressroom Studios have been cleaning, painting, and improving the space. It takes time, though, especially with the floors since the dirt and dust continues to settle back down.

Anyhow, we painted the wall a dark gray-green. It really looks quite a bit darker in real life, until you get close to it. The color is inspired by what has been referred to by some artists as "Whitaker Green," after the artist William Whitaker and the color of his studio walls. The color is a perfect background for skin tones, being complementary to their hue and quite desaturated, which makes even pale skin like mine glow in front of it.

Here's the before picture of what the wall looked like before we painted. Jamie has also primed my sides of the pillars at the front of my space, and we will paint those areas to match.

Next on the list, I am going to create a 3 panel movable wall and paint it the same color as the studio wall. Then, I will be able to control more of that light that is bouncing all over the place and also block nude models from view. I also need to get some curtains up, and we are considering painting the floor in order to lessen the amount of light that bounces off the floor and onto the model. Now that the sun is getting lower in the sky, and these are south-facing windows, direct beams of sun and light reflecting from below are becoming big problems, which is why I have temporarily moved my set-up to the corner.

Jamina Bone

As I am sure I have mentioned before, I have had an apprentice working with me in the studio. I am really pleased with the work she has created since we started working together in August, and so I thought I would share some of it here. Both the painting, above, and drawing, below, were done completely from life. (Kudos, Jamie!) She has also been great about helping me clean-up and fix-up the studio. More on that in the next post. Already I am anticipating missing her when she leaves for Chicago next summer.

Friday, October 17, 2008

Little Paintings - Cherries!

The above little 4" x 4" painting was done as a demo during my Thursday still life painting class. I was so excited about this little subject (if you know me, then you likely also know of my affection for cherries) that I decided to do it all over again last night with a different background color. Perhaps I will see what they look like with all sorts of different colors behind them. I also like how you can tell I had light from windows in the version above, but light bulbs on the 2nd version, by the shape of the highlights. Both are 4" x 4." Keep in mind that is likely smaller than they appear on the screen!

Both of these cutie-pies are available on Ebay.

Tuesday, October 14, 2008

A Painting in Need of a Name!

I finished this painting last night, and I still don't know what to name it! Everything I think of is either already taken by a previous painting, or I have in mind for future paintings. Please feel free to leave your suggestions here, otherwise I might just pick one that is in my head for a future similar painting, and then just add "II" to the next one. It's 12" x 16" oil on panel, and hopefully soon I will get a picture where the bottom half is clear.

Anyway, I have been busy painting and working. Below is a small painting I did during my Thursday Small Still Life class at ARTichokes, available on Ebay. I've also been working on my big narrative painting at the studio and might even have updates to share with you in a day or so!

Friday, October 10, 2008

Article in the KC Star

Today there's an article about the emerging arts scene in KC, KS which highlights the Pressroom Studios! Pick up a copy or read it by following the link below:

Downtown arts community gradually emerges in KCK

Tuesday, October 07, 2008

Creativity and Mental Illness

There's so much I could say on this subject, but I don't have the time, nor perhaps the inclination to attempt writing it all out anyway. However, I would like to present the following for your consumption:

Experts ponder link between creativity, mood disorders

Monday, October 06, 2008

Pumpkins on Ebay!

I love fall, and I love pumpkins. This little guy embodies the season to me. 5" x 5" oil on panel.

This narrative presented itself and I couldn't resist! Oil on panel 5" x 7".

Sunday, October 05, 2008

Small Still Life Class Starts Thursday!

This Thursday I start leading a class at ARTichokes that is all about painting these quick little still lives. I, personally, have a lot of fun trying to pin down a new object in one sitting. Today I painted this little guy, and started another composition with him and two of his friends which I will finish up tomorrow. Both paintings will be available on Ebay soon. If you are interested in getting into this yourself, I bet the ladies at ARTichokes will still let you sign up!

10-09-2008 through 10-30-2008 - Small Still Life Paintings
Join in on this fun class that is perfect for beginning as well as seasoned artists! Each week you will create your own small still life and paint it in one sitting on a small panel. Bring your favorite small subject to class, or chose from those provided. Lacey will be there to guide you as you explore a wide variety of colors, textures, and compositions.

  • Thursdays October 9th, 16th, 23rd and 30th 10 am - 12 pm
  • Location: ARTichokes
  • Cost: $145 plus tax

Progress on "Jamina"

Today I started laying in some flesh tones on my portrait from life of my apprentice, Jamina Bone. She's looking very serious right now, but as I soften things some and also add in cooler tones this should come together.

New Narrative Painting



I've been trying to get the canvas covered on this one, in between all the other things I am working on, and I am almost there. Finally I have a week that is slim on classes and private lessons, so I hope to be able to get a lot done on this in the studio over the next few days. Since taking the reference photos for this, these lovely ladies had their babies one day after the other! I have yet to meet the little munchkins in person, but perhaps this will be a good week for that, too.

Tuesday, September 30, 2008

October Classes and Workshops in Kansas City

More workshops are coming up soon! Register ASAP if you're interested.

10-06-2008 through 10-08-2008 - Figure Painting from Life
Accomplished figurative painter Lacey Lewis will lead you through her creative process in this 3 day workshop at Hilliard Gallery. Lewis will demonstrate her technique and thought process, and will cover a wide range of subjects related to figure painting including lighting, anatomy, skin tones, and appropriate color palettes. Model and a light lunch are provided, and a limited number of easels are available for student use. Please check easel availability when you register. A list of materials needed for the class available on the Hilliard website and at the gallery.

10-09-2008 through 10-30-2008 - Small Still Life Paintings
Join in on this fun class that is perfect for beginning as well as seasoned artists! Each week you will create your own small still life and paint it in one sitting on a small panel. Bring your favorite small subject to class, or chose from those provided. Lacey will be there to guide you as you explore a wide variety of colors, textures, and compositions.

  • Thursdays October 9th, 16thm 23rd and 30th 10 am - 12 pm
  • Location: ARTichokes
  • Cost: $145 plus tax

10-17-2008 through 10-19-2008 - Figure Drawing from Life
This 3 day workshop is more than your average figure drawing class! Figurative artist Lacey Lewis will teach various methods for creating an accurate and meaningful drawing of the figure in charcoal, including the principles of sight-size. Model and a light lunch are provided, and a limited number of easels are available for student use. Please check easel availability when you register. A list of materials needed for the class available on the Hilliard website and at the gallery.

Monday, September 29, 2008

Nectarines - 5" x 7"

I was a little too busy this past week to do my little paintings because of workshops and classes and such. Plus, nectarines are quite a challenge to paint!

Sunday, September 28, 2008

Portrait Workshop Demo Complete

I finished the demo up during class today. It's been difficult to get an accurate picture of it, though. Whenever I have a lot of blue in the painting, I have trouble. The slide-show of progress is below.

Saturday, September 27, 2008

Heads!

I have quite a few heads on the easel right now. Above is the demo I have been doing during my Portrait Painting Workshop at the Carnegie Arts Center. This is two days worth of work, above. Yesterday I did the monochrome; it took 3 hours minus breaks and time for instructing. The addition of color was completed during today's 6 hour session, again with breaks and also a presentation on skin tones. I estimate have 5-6 hours of actual painting time into it at this point. It's small, though, 12" x 9". *I tried to post this so that if you clicked on the above image, you would see a slide show of all the steps leading to its creation. Unfortunately, that isn't working. After I finish this up tomorrow, I will create a slide show and post it on my website for your consumption.

This is another small portrait I have started of my apprentice, Jamie. How lucky am I not only to end up with an enthusiastic and really helpful apprentice, but one who's super cute to boot! I am happy with it at this stage, except for the very last mark that I made before cleaning up. I put a light mark by the far eye to indicate a bit of skin that can be seen, and now she looks cross-eyed. Rest assured, this will change!

My friend, Amy, has done some sitting for me as well. This portrait is larger, though I can't remember the dimensions, and I approached it in a somewhat unorthodox manner. This is why I have only posted a little piece of the portrait, which is farther along than the cropped-out areas. Yes, her eyebrow is temporarily missing. I think this will take a while to finish because she doesn't live very nearby and when we are together we do a lot of chatting.

Finally, Seamus modeled for my Thursday portrait drawing class so I had another chance to sketch him. This one has a much different character than the profile, which I find interesting.

Still to come are pictures of my new narrative-type painting, nectarines, and a new class!

Stay Tuned - More Soon!

I wish I had more time to update my blog. I like blogging, if only to help myself keep tabs on my work. Right now I am smack in the middle of portrait painting workshop, and did a neat little demo in my portrait drawing class last week, and also started a new big painting in the studio. I will have time to post about these soon, but not right now!

So, please do stay tuned. :-)

Monday, September 22, 2008

Figure Painting Progress

Progress on the figure painting. Everything is basic and cartoon-y, but that's fine at this stage.